Early perimenopause: A personal journey with experiencing perimenopause in her early 30s

Wizz Selvey shares a really honest recount of how she discovered her early perimenopause, her symptoms, feeling overwhelmed and gaslit, then onto her road to properly understanding and managing her symptoms. 

We talk about: 

• What sleep is like, now and during perimenopause
• Puberty and early adulthood: the signs and the symptoms
• Ignoring her cycle and realisation to embrace it, work with it
• The real cost of questioning herself 
• The very early signs of perimenopause that "hit hard" 
• Thinking it was long covid, discovering it was perimenopause
•  Perimenopause is a massive opportunity to reassess your life
• How she managed her symptoms naturally, thinking about HRT

More about Wizz 

Wizz Selvey the Co-founder of Valerie. The company tackling one of the biggest health challenges of our time: the 1 billion women navigating peri/menopause. Their mission is bold - to revolutionise midlife healthcare and empower women to live fully and freely at every age.

Valerie is more than a product; we’re a movement. We’re here to help women reclaim their health, take back control, and turn midlife into maxlife. 

Valerie have developed Daily Essential, a pioneering liposomal technology supplement with 12 nutrients and 90 health benefits. 

Email her for partnerships and ambassador roles wizz@wearevalerie.com

Transcript

Thank you so much for joining us today. We are here with Wizz Selvey talking about your personal journey with perimenopause. It is hard to talk about perimenopause without talking about menopause, but I've broken the episodes up for a few reasons. One, it feels as if we should be thinking and talking about perimenopause and menopause earlier than may be previously thought. And there's ways that we can be preparing for it—maybe even some signs that we can start spotting earlier on. And then second, there's just so much to cover when it comes to menopause. Today is very much hearing about firsthand what that journey has been like for you personally. I'd always like to start with a question, either around sleep or a cycle. And I wanna ask you about your sleep today. How did you sleep last night? What's your sleep like in general?

Sleep is such a hot topic, isn't it? And makes such a difference to the whole day ahead and the week. I didn't sleep as well as I wanted to—but do I ever? I couldn't get to sleep and actually normally I'm quite good at falling asleep, but I was a bit too wired. I had a really busy day yesterday, so I hadn't really had the time to decompress enough and I went to bed. I always try and read before bed and went a little bit and I was tired, but I just hadn't had enough time to wind down. So it took me, yeah, probably, I dunno, an hour and a half to fall asleep. So although I slept through, I was going to sleep a lot later than I hoped for.

Yeah, I feel like I was a little bit like that too. I'm always a bit wired; I could talk about sleep as well for hours. So before we get into your journey, I wanted to actually start at puberty and talk about what puberty was like for you, and what were your first few cycles?

It's funny 'cause I can't actually remember it that well. I remember getting my period and being at my grandma's house and being in the bath and yeah, then having it; I was 12. Then it wasn't really talked about. I think it was a little bit at school—have you, haven't you, have you had your period, haven't you had your period?. And yeah, it was... it wasn't really a discussion, so I don't really remember it. I don't remember having horrendous periods, but then I went onto the pill when I was 14 for my skin, which was very common. I think I was a spotty teenager, like cystic, like acne type—quite painful spots, particularly on my back—so a solution was very quickly going to go on the pill. And I think as a result of that, I then had a very... quite light cycle. And I didn't really follow my cycle at all until I was in my mid to late thirties and my kind of life imploded a bit, and now I look back and realised that was perimenopause. So I started looking into multiple different areas of my life that could be affecting me because I was feeling so terrible.

And then looking to your sort of twenties, what was life like leading up to perimenopause—like your job, your health, relationships, all of that?

Yeah, I've always been in very good health. In my twenties I was very much worked hard, party hard—probably growing up in that ladette culture really in the noughties. So I had a lot of fun. I worked really hard. I had a great job; I worked at Selfridges for 12 years. I was there all through my twenties and early thirties, worked in buying. I was working in fashion, then I was accessory buyer, then I was head of beauty buying. So yeah, I was really living a great life and didn't really consider my cycle again. I think being on the pill helped; if I had period pain, I'd take painkillers and just carry on and just, yeah.

I think also thinking about that ladette culture as well—I think how we were growing up in a time where you could really do anything the same as men. So I really didn't even consider myself in a feminine way, which is quite interesting. And I think the last few years I've really started to unpack that quite a lot as well. Because it was, as a young girl, you could do anything as well as a boy or a man. And as you started growing up, and that's where your approach to life was to, yeah, work hard, play hard, and you can do anything the same as a man.

So I, if anyone ever talked about me being tired or something 'cause of my cycle—like my partner said to me, "Oh, when we've been skiing, for example, is maybe not skiing as well 'cause you're on your period"—and I'd get really angry with him. Like, "How dare you say that?". And it's now only, I've learned more about my cycle in my late thirties that I was like, "Oh, so we do have these four phases and there is a reason I'm a bit not coordinated with this cycle". But I'd be like, "How dare you say that, I could do anything the same as a man". So I completely dismissed any kind of cycle that I had and phases and why I felt different and blocked that out. I don't regret it, but there's a lot of hindsight now that I'm like, "Wow, that's really different I think to the generation that's coming through now as teenagers and women in their twenties that are so aware of their bodies, which is incredible". But yeah, I completely shut down and ignored it, and I think a lot of my friends did as well.

Yeah, I think sometimes getting those comments like "you are just angry 'cause you're on your period" probably made women quite defensive and obviously still would. As you just mentioned your friends there, what were the health discussions between you and your friends like? Did you talk openly about your periods and health back then, or do you think it was a bit more taboo?

There was a couple of people that really suffered with periods. And I remember one friend in particular that was crippled with period pain and couldn't come into school and actually she had probably three or four years of days off, and kept getting ignored by the doctor and in the end had a cyst the size of a watermelon and one the size of a lemon, which was obviously causing quite a lot of pain. But that took three or four years before that was diagnosed. So I remember her and I was just like, "Wow, I'm really glad I don't suffer that badly". But we didn't talk about it much.

I think we again—and I see this a lot with women that are going through perimenopause as well—is when something physical starts to happen in our bodies that women take action. And quite often certainly my generation ignore if they're not feeling great and just march on and get on with it. But if something physical changes—so I think for a lot of our conversations was around skin, so we had acne, so we all talked about going on the pill. So a lot of my friends, 14, 15, we were going on the pill and that's just what you did 'cause that's brilliant, we don't have to have these horrible zits or painful cyst-type things anymore. So it'd all be about the pill and awful stripping our skin with Clean & Clear. And we have this like topical stuff that we just have to keep in the fridge and then it'd bleach your pillows and stuff. Oh my God. So it was, yeah, it was all about how we looked.

I think back then it sounds like there was just such a lack of access to information. It feels like now there's a lack of access to accurate information. There's just so much information. And having the tools, young women, to sift through that online and understand things and understand when things are not accurate is incredibly difficult.

Definitely.

So now looking more towards perimenopause, your diagnosis. Ahead of this podcast, I was doing a lot of research and some of the things I found were quite shocking. One woman described her peri-brain and that she would forget not only the point she was trying to make mid-sentence, but she forgot her home address twice. Another woman was thinking it was maybe early onset Alzheimer's. Another talked about irregular periods, hot flashes, insomnia, and massive hair loss. Can you tell me about what your symptoms were?

Yeah, I've been counting how many symptoms I've now had over the last four or five years, and I've had 19. So there's 48 that are recognised with the NHS, but there's a lot more that are being started to be talked about and discovered, but aren't addressed or necessarily linked at the moment. But yeah, I definitely relate to that brain fog. The other day I couldn't remember my friend's husband's name; I'd known him for 10 years. This week I went to write something down—I was on my computer—I went to write something down and I wrote the first half of the sentence, and then I forgot what the second half of the sentence was and I was like, "Wow, this is mad".

So my brain is very different and it's quite frustrating. I've always been quite on it and sharp and been called intelligent a lot, and then I'm just like, "Wow, things have really changed". My brain's slower or just that recall isn't there, but it'll come back to me, but a day later or a few hours later, which I think we can all relate to in some way, but it's a lot. It happens a lot. So I think that's quite a shift and a change. And I think also just trying to accept that really, I think is a big element of it. And also not being afraid to say, "Yeah, this is just what's happening. Just give me a minute". Rather than getting flustered and feeling silly or stupid, and just being like, "Oh, hang on. Just give me a minute. I need to think about this. Or try and go through a series of things to try and remember, or I'll come back to you".

But yeah, I suppose the early signs of perimenopause for me were increased anxiety. So the ability to handle stress was a big thing. Going back to sleep, insomnia, waking up at 3:00 AM. I had heart palpitations. Don't Google heart palpitations; I used to, and then I'd say to my partner, "I think I've got angina," 'cause that's what would come up. I was like, "Angina or a heart attack," and then I'd be like... and he's, "You've got angina again". And then it just became a joke, but it wasn't funny. I had this weird buzzing in my body sometimes.

My periods were completely regular. And I think this is a big misconception as well about perimenopause is people think it's hot flashes and it's irregular periods. And those are definitely quite major symptoms, but they very much happen again—generally, it's different every woman—but very much kind of a couple of years before you go into menopause. And menopause is actually only one day. Menopause is one day, which is 12 months after your last period. But people talk about perimenopause as menopause. But actually, and that's that hot flashes and irregular periods that can start to happen, but there's a lot of earlier symptoms which again start to creep up on you and you don't really realise what's happening. And from a lot of women I speak to from running a brand in the perimenopause space is a lot of people say it's four or five years before they actually look back and were like, "Ah, that's when it started". But this confidence thing is a massive thing that really starts to change as your progesterone starts to drop or fluctuate. The confidence that you once had is suddenly, "Why can't I do that?" or "Why don't I want to speak up in that meeting?". Or women have suddenly said, "Oh, I suddenly don't want to drive at night," things that they would never think twice about; they're questioning themselves.

How do you... how did you get to that point where you realised it was perimenopause? What was the discussion like with your doctors? Did you have to do any tests around that?

Ironically, it was starting this business, so I wasn't really sure. And that's the challenge. I thought I had long COVID, I thought it might be burnout. And I did; I think there's a big reason there's a lot of women experience burnout in their late thirties and forties, and that's actually perimenopause and hormones fluctuating. So there's a big crossover with that, and a lot of it will be those, that hormonal change that you're starting to go through in those fluctuations.

So it's very hard. People, I think everyone wants a diagnosis, but very often it's very hard to get one. I went to my GP—so I was 37, 38 when I looked back and realised I started experiencing perimenopause symptoms—and when I was 40, I went to the doctors and I had been chronically ill for a year, almost like every two or three weeks I was sick. I was having reoccurring UTIs, I was getting norovirus, I was getting sick and colds all the time. I was completely run down. I couldn't get through the workday without having to have a nap. I didn't want to socialise, so I'd really lost my sense of self and my whole life was affected and I just thought, "Wow, I'm just never gonna be me again". I was really miserable.

And a couple of years before I'd become almost quite depressed, but I'd done a lot of work on myself with life coaching and yoga and meditation to try and get myself out of that. And then by the time I went to the doctor, I talked to the doctor and said, "Look, what's going on? I just can't cope". And they did a number of tests and told me everything was fine. And then said, "Do you want antidepressants?". And I said, "No. I... maybe two years ago I look back and I probably was depressed, but I know I'm not now". And I was really passionate that I've done a lot of work on myself, I'm much happier and I know I'm not depressed, just something really isn't right. And they said, "There's nothing we can do. Try not to get so stressed". That was it. And I... I came off the phone—it was a female doctor as well, which I felt like made it worse—and I came off the phone and burst into tears because I didn't know what to do.

So at that next point, someone had talked about a naturopath and nutritionist that they'd worked with. So I thought, "Ah, that person mentioned her, I'll get in touch". So I spoke to her and had a number of different tests, and realised that a lot of my essential vitamins and minerals were absolutely through the floor. So I started taking a lot of supplements. I hadn't really taken supplements before, not really even a multivitamin. I ate quite healthily and thought, "Hopefully I can get everything from food," which obviously I found out I couldn't. I was taking 20 tablets in the morning, 20 tablet supplements at night and six at lunchtime. So 46 different supplements throughout the day. I had a spreadsheet printed out that I put inside my kitchen cupboard to even remember what to take. And then gradually I started to feel better. But it took a long time. And what I now realise is that actually I wasn't absorbing a lot of those pills and powders. It's very hard for your body to absorb them. So it takes time to build that back up, which is where we went on the journey of developing Valerie and using a much more bioavailable format called a liposomal.

A few questions there. So with supplements, as you said, you were taking so many—like, what do women need to be careful of when they are taking supplements? As you say, not all of them are bioavailable.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a big one. I suppose it's knowing what's right for you, trying to understand what's going on with your body, and getting a blend that's gonna work together. And again, you hear lots of things about, "Oh, you need to take turmeric with black pepper for the absorption point of view". Again, that's a challenge because you're... it's your body; it's hard to absorb these nutrients. So you have your... it's gotta get through your digestive track and all those enzymes, don't get... got to get through, could then get eaten by the liver enzymes and then you could pass it on a bit through. And then it's that combination of what's gonna help things absorb. So again, with something like a liposomal, it means the nutrients are protected and get straight into your bloodstream. So yeah, looking at the format and the delivery system and the bioavailability is a big thing to be thinking about with supplements. And then, yeah, trying to identify how you're feeling and what different ingredients and supplements can try and help you in the phase that you are at as well.

Did you ever explore things like HRT? 'Cause obviously you've gone on a natural journey: diet, supplementation. Did you ever look into anything like that? What's your sort of point of view on that?

Yeah. I'm actually in the process of about to go onto HRT, and I thought, "Okay, let's see how far I get without it". But I've had to really push for that. I've probably had four appointments now with the doctor and I've had to be really firm, even talking to people I know who are doctors, who have told me how to have a conversation with a doctor myself. I'm quite lucky now I'm surrounded by people that are specialists in this area, so they've helped me frame that with my GP. But I've had to be, yeah, really forceful—of "this is what I want"—because I've been passed around to lots of different doctors and not many people are trained in menopause or perimenopause.

And do you think that's the reason why there was that reluctancy to give it to you, to prescribe it to you, because they're not trained?

When I went when I was 40, perimenopause wasn't even discussed. It didn't even come on their radar. And then when I went to the doctors at the beginning of the year, they said... so the NHS doctors will do a test which tests your FSH levels, but that test, they start to decline when you're in menopause. So they're like, "You're not in menopause". I was like, "I know I'm not in menopause, I'm in perimenopause". So I had to explain: I'm not saying I'm in menopause, I'm saying I'm in Perry and this is how I'm feeling.

So again, that's the only test that's done on the NHS and I think a lot of people want a test and an answer, and the challenge is, again, a blood test will only test one second in time. We have a monthly cycle, so anyway, our hormones are fluctuating, even if we're regular and not in perimenopause. But if we are in perimenopause, it's like a rollercoaster. So one month it might be normal; the next month it might be wildly different to the month before or the week before. Because that's what's happening with your estrogen and progesterone; it's this crazy rollercoaster, very similar to puberty, rather than the more... what I now look back as a more regular cycle.

Yeah, I was listening to another menopause podcast the other day and it was actually a doctor talking about it's hard to test if it's also worked for you, HRT, because you have your natural fluctuations during perimenopause with estrogen, so it's hard to know: is that HRT or is it naturally? So, yeah, it's really interesting and hopefully more innovation around the tests are coming into the space. Again, reading more into perimenopause and menopause, I saw a lot of "nobody ever told me this, my mother never told me this," and it's something we chatted about before. There's also a lot of research emerging around that 55% of women experience menopause symptoms in their thirties and that for women aged 36 to 40, that figure rises to 64% who report moderate and severe symptoms. But I think women in their twenties probably think, "This doesn't apply to me, it's not relevant." What would you say to the women in their twenties who might be listening to this?

I think it's a hard one to swallow as well, because women are waiting longer to have children. So there's this: if a woman wants to get pregnant, they think, "I'll be fine in my thirties or even into early forties". But then there's this kind of merge where women are having babies a lot later and actually could be in perimenopause. Or they're postpartum and they're in perimenopause as well, but they don't want to associate with that because they think, "I'm childbearing and that's what's happening to me at the moment". And I think so a lot of people ignore it or put it off.

And I don't think it's a bad thing either; I think perimenopause is a massive opportunity to reassess your life. All of a sudden your body's going, "Hang on a minute, you need to make some changes," and it starts screaming at you because you can't just carry on and push through the way that you did before when you were younger. So you have to put yourself first and listen to what your body's telling you. So actually it's a massive opportunity to make some big life changes. But yeah, not to be scared of it. And perimenopause can last four to 12 years. So it's not menopause, it's not your periods stopping; it's just a whole phase before.

Yeah, I think for me, looking ahead, I was quite scared. I feel like I'm scared about so many women's health areas, like pregnancy and birth, and now adding perimenopause onto the list. But I also heard that the good news is you can fix it or you can relieve those symptoms. It's not, "This is it, you have perimenopause and that's your life now." Obviously you've seen that you can manage them, you can relieve yourself of those symptoms, which is obviously good news. You touched on it before, but looking at contraception—if any—how has contraception played a part with perimenopause or your health in general? Especially maybe coming off contraception, as a lot of young women are also talking about hormonal contraception a lot online at the moment.

Yeah, and I'm seeing a few articles popping up at the moment, but the reality is the studies aren't there. Like people have done studies on female health and there is no control over, "Okay, we've studied women that went on the pill at 18 versus 14 versus 25 and how that affects perimenopause," because there are no studies. So we really actually don't know. But yeah, there's a lot of talk about that, which I think is quite interesting. But I think it's great that a lot of young women are embracing hormone-free, but then that can also come with its own challenges.

But yeah, I suppose my own experience was going on the pill and then being late thirties and reading a book about my period when I was probably 38, 39—the first time I'd ever read anything about periods. And I was like, "Oh, wow, you have four phases to the cycle". I didn't even think about that; I just thought about, "Oh, you get PMS a bit before and then you have your period and it's a bit painful". And I didn't really think about anything else, which I dunno, is it embarrassing or it's just the world we lived in and that's what happened. So I was like, "Wow, I can't believe I've been on the pill". So I came off the pill and moved on to a copper coil 'cause I was like, "Earth mother, I'm gonna go all natural". And this is the way. And for a number of years that worked. But now my periods are getting quite bad—much heavier, really painful—and some of them are becoming closer together, further apart. So actually I'm gonna move on to the hormone coil instead. Also that provides as part of HRT as well. So yeah, I've gone full circle on it, but big decision to change 'cause it's, yeah, not a nice experience getting it changed either.

I can imagine. Yeah. I think, now looking towards the menopause, how are you feeling about that? How are you preparing for that, considering you've just been through this journey—or are still going through this journey—of perimenopause?

Yeah, so supplements have played a massive part in that and that's why we created Valerie and, I know it's... I'm co-founder of this brand, but it's made a massive impact in my life. Being able to work a full day without needing a nap; I can now do that, whereas I couldn't before. So that has been quite a major step change. So yeah, feeling much better from getting my vitamins and minerals back up. Taking ingredients that are like Ashwagandha, that's very calming; B vitamins, that's good for natural energy. I thought I ate healthy, but it's now making me even... eating even more healthy—thinking more about macros, having a lot more protein. Definitely wasn't eating enough protein before, which is a key part of it.

My body's really changed. I used to be able to, if I wanted to lose a bit of weight, just eat a bit less and that'd be fine. My blood sugar is now quite erratic, so I have to be really careful with that. And even if I try to lose weight how I used to, I've actually put on weight, I think because of my blood sugar. So that's, yeah, very frustrating. Still trying to work that one out and, yeah, mindfulness and taking breaks and yoga and meditation, looking after myself, starting strength training. It's complicated. It's a lot. But if you don't do it, you really notice.

Yeah, getting enough grains, things like seeds are really powerful. I really notice, again, my hormonal acne came back that I had at puberty, and actually I managed to calm that down by eating seeds. So sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds—which is... you're thinking, "Wow, if that's doing that on the outside to my acne, like, what's that doing to the inside?". It's quite incredible. So yeah, really making sure you're getting enough of those nutrients and fibre and vegetables and protein and yeah, I think food is just a massive part of it as well.

Yeah, I can definitely relate and back that. I think coming off the pill and thinking fertility-wise for me and my acne coming off the pill and how I've not just... I always thought I ate healthy as well and then now I eat according to my cycle—like red meat around my period and in the lead up—so I don't get those horrible, painful periods. Like it's amazing how much of a difference it makes and I don't think I appreciated it when I was younger for sure. So... you've just been through quite a busy period for your business. Obviously very stressful. That on top of perimenopause has been probably an experience in itself. What would you say to the women listening who do have those like intense jobs, lots of stress, but then also juggling with this? Do you have any advice on how they can manage the stress? You touched on it before, but specifically I guess around work life.

Yeah, I think take some time for yourself. We women change; we change. It's a massive transition period and I think every decade everyone changes, but I think this is really significant when people start to experience perimenopause as well. And women are givers naturally and they're probably doing a lot for everyone else. And I don't think the phrase "put on your life jacket first" has ever become so important. A lot of people have kids, either young kids 'cause they're having kids later, or teenagers. So you have perimenopause and puberty, ageing parents, high-powered jobs. They're trying to juggle it all and not putting themselves first, which they could get away with and suddenly they can't. So they have to put some boundaries in place, I think is the biggest bit of advice. And you need to work out what those boundaries are. So be selfish—although it's not selfish—filling yourself first. Because if you don't put yourself first, you can't look after other people, care for other people, do a good job. So that's my number one bit of advice is just take some time for you.

Yeah. It's so true. And be kind to yourself—you said that before. Looking at sort of the industry and health-tech available to women—do you feel hopeful? Are you seeing some exciting innovations—of course, other than Valerie coming out supporting these women in perimenopause and menopause—or do you think that we still have a long way to go?

I think it's an a really exciting time, like, to be part of this. I think it's a movement as well, really around female health, around perimenopause, menopause in general. It's suddenly top of the agenda for so many people. There's a huge amount of innovation. There's a huge amount of research being done. There's a lot of misinformation as well, which is... it can be quite challenging. And as you referenced earlier, it's almost... the internet has helped in some ways and that can people access to information, but then there's a lot of stuff that people can read into that perhaps isn't right or isn't right for them either.

But yeah, I think it's a massive movement. And I think even the basic things like tracking your period is a big thing. Tracking your symptoms, tracking how you feel, and whether that's using an app or literally a small little journal that you carry around with you, I think becomes really important because you can be suddenly like, "Oh, okay, actually this month my period's been much better. What happened this month compared to what the month before?". And it's very easy to forget those things unless you make a quick note of it as well.

And I think that's one of, again, a biggest tip around... yeah, I think any woman, but particularly going into perimenopause as well, is tracking those symptoms. Because that's the power of, if you do want to go to have your doctor's appointment, is making sure you've got that list of symptoms and how you're feeling because you can get there and then, A) brain fog and you can't remember what you were gonna say anyway, and B) you... it's... things have been happening gradually over time, and then you need to have all of those pieces of the puzzles to try and work it out. And perimenopause isn't necessarily about a test; I believe it's about putting those symptoms together, looking at that list of them and being like, "Okay, actually now I realise I've had X amount," which is what I did when I was preparing for an appointment with my doctor to go, "I've had 19 of these symptoms," which I had a list of next to me so I could read them off.

Just actually on your symptoms—were they recurring, like at the exact same time, or it's just the fact that they were reoccurring?

No, they're all over the... so like night sweats I used to have, and I haven't had night sweats, yeah, probably, I don't know, maybe six months, which is great. And a lot of things like that can also be things like not having enough magnesium; like itchy skin, again, can be... there's lots of things that if you've got deficiency in certain things... a lot of people are quite low in B12, for example, which can cause really extreme fatigue. So there's kind of these deficiencies that can build up over time and then all of a sudden they really affect you. But actually getting up some of those levels can really help alleviate some of the perimenopause symptoms that you're feeling.

There is a lot of information online, like we said, and a lot of it's conflicting, I feel. We are part of a group—a WhatsApp group—and even on that WhatsApp group at one stage talking about perimenopause, everyone had conflicting ideas and obviously they had their own personal experience. Is there, other than the work that you do, of course, a place that you go to for resources and information—information, I should say—or anything that you can point listeners to, that has great sources of info around perimenopause and menopause?

Yeah, I mean there's basic information on the NHS website, and it's got a list of symptoms on. And then we also try and collate information from experts. We work with a lot of doctors and nurses and people that are trained in this space to write blogs for us, and we commissioned that information so that we can share that with people. So we have a blog on our website where people can access that, that are written by experts. So yeah, we try and bring the best of the information together in one place. So if anyone wants to check that out, that's wearevalerie.com. And we do regular newsletters and we also have a World Women WhatsApp group as well—so a community where people can ask each other's experiences as well or, "How have you found this?". And people give different tips.

But again, it can be challenging 'cause even if you don't do the doctor route and you want to do a more natural route, there's then different trainings from different types of nutritionists or different trainings from a gynaecologist versus someone who does acupuncture. So there's lots of different approaches and modalities. So I would definitely advise if you're going to go down a different route than a doctor, just to choose one person, do your research and just follow that protocol 'cause otherwise it can get very overwhelming.

Have you... I'm sure you get feedback from your users all the time. Have you had one particular story that sort of stayed with you where they've had this horrific experience, but really have been able to turn it around and manage it?

Yeah. I get some amazing messages from women; it's so incredible. The one that really stuck with me—it was somebody sent me a text and said, "I went to a party at the weekend and I had fun". I haven't... I've had such social anxiety for the last two years I haven't had fun and I just... like, heartbreaking. And she's, "Since I've been on Valerie, I've got more energy. My confidence is back. I just feel so much better in myself". And just that someone's gone and had fun, it was like, "Wow, this is incredible". So yeah, I think messages like that, it's really impactful.

And a lot of people, again, with that extreme fatigue... people are like, "I actually managed to get to the gym." So they know they need to go to the gym, but they've got such extreme exhaustion, like people are napping in their car when they're trying to pick their kids up and yeah, go... having to go to bed in the afternoon and just not being able to function or cope, and then suddenly they've been able to get their life back. There's been... and I've had a number of messages like that... it's making such difference.

That's incredible. That's great. Last few questions here. What would you say to the partners of sufferers of perimenopause? How can they support their partner? How can they show up?

Yeah, learning, trying to listen I think is the big thing as well. And it's not always about fixing. I think often it's about listening as well. Again, men and women are very different and men want to fix things all the time, which again, is a trait which is fantastic, but sometimes women just want to be heard or to say how they're feeling. And again, I suppose sharing symptoms, sharing, yeah, trackers or apps and things like that. And sometimes even it's hard to talk about maybe if you are writing your symptoms down saying, "This is how I feel".

A big thing actually, because we use a lot of humour in our brand—'cause we think, actually this doesn't have to be too serious and boring. Yes, it's science-backed, but actually let's have some fun as well. A lot of our women, our World Women, share memes with their husbands 'cause they're like, "That explains exactly how I'm feeling," and then they're like, "Oh, I get it". It's just a really quick way to be able to communicate.

That's a great idea. If there was just one piece of advice for a young woman who thinks they might have perimenopause, what would you tell them to do?

One piece of advice: Track their cycle and symptoms. I think it is so important. And then talk to people; find a community and start, yeah, having the conversation. I think also this is particularly hard if you're young—and I was late thirties. It's taken me a number of years to be confident talking about it. I didn't really know until the last kind of year and a half, but even six months ago, people would be like, "You're not. No, you can't be you're..." and they'd tell me I wasn't. They'd say, "You're too young," and then I'd doubt myself and then I'd be like, "Oh my God". But I'm like, "No, it's really important that I talk about this because it can help other women". And so many other women say to me, "I'm so glad you shared that. I think this is happening to me". And it's only by sharing that you can start to help other people.

So yeah, I think it's trying to, yeah, find some communities or, yeah, sound it out or talk to friends. I think also what we see as well is often friends aren't going through it at the same time and they are having a different experience to friends, or their friends are in denial. So many people say, "Oh God, my friend's clearly in perimenopause, but she's just completely denying it," and that's okay. But then that can be quite lonely for that person that is ready to talk about it, which is why we have this community, WhatsApp group of Wild Women, because sometimes it's also easier to share with someone you don't know. So I think trying to find some of those communities is a great way to share. And if you're not ready to share it with some people close, it can be easier with people you don't know.

That's great. That's all we have time for. Thank you so much for sharing all of your advice and your journey. And I think that especially young women listening to this will get a lot out of it. So thank you so much.

Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks.